The 10th Altar - Page 110

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Posted on March 20, 2010 10:15

dxb_blackwolf
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#1636

obito is op lol... already +13 with him on first try, let see how far I can get with him before he gets a nerf :P

I think young kakashi is a little weak since his moves are too plain, but he's really helpful doing 35 damage easily since it fits a lot of combos that lacked 5 more hp. but Im surprised he's that low with percentages. (I think its partly because good players arent using them coz of their terrible start O.O)

Thanks for the sig TwinxMangekyou

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, a time traveler, slider, or an esper,
then come find me! That is all." -Suzumya Haruhi

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:17

TrainSefira
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#1637

I agree, Obito is definitely OP.
Piercing 30 damage that ignores invulnerability for 1 random chakra after a 1 chakra prep? Get outta here.

P.S. whats ya team? :P

Is now officially a university student.
Bachelor in Science, here I come.

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:19

Masta_J
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#1638

TrainSefira wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

Alright.
Young Kakashi is still bad.
I can think of maybe 5 skills that would be useful to copy with Ally Copy:
Piercing Stab (Obito)
Raikiri (Kakashi (More for lulz than anything))
Conch Shell Mace (I&K)
Sprinkling Needles (Shigure)
Shiki Fuujin (Sandaime Hokage)

Now.........4/5 are random skills.
Seriously.
Everything in this game must be taken in CONTEXT.
Now, a 35 attack for 1 specific, 1 random would be good IN CONTEXT if the character had a other moves with different effects.
But on a character that has 2 moves of 35, and a near useless "Copy" skill that only works in certain teams.
You may say "Oh it gives DR"
But if YKakashi is left, he has no-one to copy, so he gets no DR.
There is something seriously wrong with this character.
When he had the 35 + 25 which couldn't be countered, that was the right track.
Diversity is the key to all characters.

you forgot kin's illusion duplication attack and rin's med pack.
actually he can still use the DR if left alone.
yes like i said before he is poorly designed but he is still poorly designed in an OP fashion. there is nothing "bad" about the character.

Nor is there anything "Good".
Or "useful".

if used with about 5 minutes or forethought the character is deadly. there are so many combos with sharingan copy that you never even thought of

i stand by what ive said to this point YK is good to the point of being argued as OP

Heres 5 minutes of forethought for you:
This isn't a game based on your skill level.
There are literally thousands of players who suck more than you at this game.
So what you may find "deadly" they may find challenging.
Unless you are willing to Message everyone on this site with a step-by-step, fool-proof guide to Young Kakashi, you cannot call him OP.
You can only call him OP in your opinion.
1 out of roughly.........2 million.
I'm sure you're right. :amused

i never made this debate about my skill level. because honestly it's not worth arguing. but i'm also not going to bring up the skill level of the "people who suck more than me" because it's because of those people that he has low percentages lol.

on paper her is just an OP character point blank period. :noworry

On paper Communism is a good idea.
Doesn't make it true. :oh

but we arent here to discuss communism, just like we arent here to discuss the skill level of the players of this game :rolleyes

. we are here to discuss the balance of the characters. and from what ive said i have clearly made my point as to why YK is at the very least good, where as i still see him as OP. where as you haven't said a thing to really disprove this other than complain that he isn't a diverse character... which i do believe i originally stated. so... if that was your only point in the discussion about YK why are you still posting? :unsure

Obviously for no good reason, as you cannot seem to admit defeat.

You seem to believe that YKakashi is "good".
Obviously because have had "success" with the character.
What you fail to realize that a character is not "good" when 1 or 2 people can use it well, rather when a majority of people can use it well.
When too many people use said character well, they become "OP" which is reflected in the win-rates.
Now, with the change of the cost of 1 skill slightly, YKakashi is not drastically "boosted", because that skill was not exactly "useful".
It has limited uses, which limits the amount of effective teams that yKakashi can be placed in, if that skill is to be used as part of a strategy.

Though I do not see why I am even bothering to discuss this with you, as you have no idea about what relevance "player skill" has to do with the determining of whether a character is "good" or "bad".

the reason i say young kakashi is OP isn't solely based off my "success" with the character but instead of the versatility of said character. he has the potential to play a spiker in virtually almost any team replacing a nin user or a tai user. furthermore through intelligent use of his copy skill he can play tons more roles from healer to stunner to counter to defender. there is literally no limit to his potential due to this skill. and how on earth do you figure that his sharingan move would limit him from fitting in teams? as a matter of fact with 20 DR he is as annoying as pre nerfed Naruto but can attack for almost as much damage for the same chakra and can do it non stop w/o the need for a prep or w/o the hassle of a cooldown.

and i am not sure what you mean by accept defeat. there is no loss here for me :noworry

OH and btw. "player skill" should have nothing to do with a character being good or bad. because one lacks the knowledge of how to use a tool it doesn't make the tool less useful it just proves the user's ignorance. and gives them reason to become educated in how to use said tool.

for example if someone doesn't know how to use a computer does it make the computer defective? i think not.

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Posted on March 20, 2010 10:28

kalandra
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#1639

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

it should be interesting to note that 1 specific 1 random for 30 damage was/is the measuring stick for a skill when the game was made.... it has only been in about the last year that this maxim has begun to fail.

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

@no_games & masta_J

Why I call 35 damage for 1 specific and 1 random weak? Did you two just browse past my post?

Because there are better skills out there. And I listed down alot of alternative. If you think 35 damage for 1 specific and 1 random is good, prove it. List down attacks that are worse than a plain 35 damage for 1 specific and 1 random. At most you get two or three skills.

And why people don't use YK sharingan? Because frankly it sucks. There are little moves worth copying. If people use it, its for the damage reduction it gives, not because of the ability to copy skills.

Also, I think the current Obito is overpowered, but the previous Obito just below average.

@YK: it's not just having 35 for 1 specific 1 ran that is OP is that he has 2 moves, for 2 different specific, and of 2 different classes that both do 35 with no cooldown. it's just too constant and like NG said the list of attacks you named half were the only attacks of those chars and either did less damage or came with a cool down. imo none of them are better than what YK can do, they are all on par at best.

@Obito: before the nerf i had only lost one maybe 2 games with my obito teams out of the 20-30 i had played with them in various pbs and tournies now with a boost like this he is ridiculous. as a character he has been good since the boost to 25 base damage for 1 tai. just because you couldnt find use for him didnt make him below average (smh)

If you want consistency, you can use Demon Brothers or I&K. Sure its 5 less damage, but its even more consistent (because its all random!) than Young Kakashi two attacks!

I&K can even go up to 45 damage for 2 random if they don't get stunned. Compared that to a miserable 35 damage for 1 specific and 1 random.

Its my opinion that 35 damage for 1 specific and 1 random is terrible, and my opinion is supported by the winrates.

the 5 less damage really makes a very big difference.

it's the difference for needing to waste an extra attack to kill a character look at it this way.

I&k and demon bros would need 4 attacks to kill some1 where as YK only needs 3. that's 2 chakra being saved and a turn where the opponent gets one less chakra. not to mention 35 fits into a lot more 100 damage kill combos than 30 does. it opens teams up to 25 damage attackers to be used in combo where as 30 attackers would require another 30 attacker to do the same. and they usually require 2 chakra to perform such attacks where as 25 attackers usually require 1 which opens your team up to more combos. the 5 damage really makes a difference.

But having a 2 random cost instead of 1 specific and 1 random is an even bigger difference compared to those 5 damage.

And having one skill being better than 2 skills makes an even bigger difference.

And did I mention I&K can do up to 45 damage for 2 randoms?

are you intentionally being stubborn or what? 2 random is only advantageous if the person is getting no nin and no tai. which statistically speaking isn't very likely. =/

where do you see one skill being better than the two?

yes that's nice and all but he can be stunned and anyone can defend, or counter, or just kill I&K he can be stopped and then you are stuck with 30 damage for 2 chakra. and even if you still got the combo off it's still 4 turns to kill. where as YK still only needs 3.

Your the one being stubborn. Statistically speaking, Young Kakashi is on the bottom of the winrates and I&K are on top of the winrates. If you're right, then explain how the supposedly superior 1 specific 1 random for 35 damage is much much lower than the supposedly inferior 2 random for 30 damage! Sure the winrates might be slightly inaccurate, but they are not that inaccurate.

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:29

dxb_blackwolf
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#1640

TrainSefira wrote:

I agree, Obito is definitely OP.
Piercing 30 damage that ignores invulnerability for 1 random chakra after a 1 chakra prep? Get outta here.

P.S. whats ya team? :P

hmm should I say:rolleyes

its obito bros itachi :P

Thanks for the sig TwinxMangekyou

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, a time traveler, slider, or an esper,
then come find me! That is all." -Suzumya Haruhi

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:31

TrainSefira
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#1641

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

The win-rates are also a much better reading of how "balanced" a character is than a players perceptions.

E.G.
Every noob who complains about Haku on the Altar.

Is now officially a university student.
Bachelor in Science, here I come.

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:35

Masta_J
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#1642

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

oh that's simple to explain. at least from my point of view that is I&K have been this way since their change to random attackers and teams have been established and are being used in the same dependable manner {i.e. constantly high winrates}. where as YK is a relatively new char who is still being boosted/nerfed/reworked so there are no fallback teams wit him yet that can produce those win rates not to mention he is a starter char and the people who use starter chars tend to be newer players vs the time it takes to get I&K people usually shed the noobyness by then.

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Posted on March 20, 2010 10:38

no-games
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#1643

TrainSefira wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

The win-rates are also a much better reading of how "balanced" a character is than a players perceptions.

E.G.
Every noob who complains about Haku on the Altar.

But yet, almost daily I see many of you complaining about Miss Perma Stun (Sakura) being OP and begging to rework her even though her %'s stay around the 50% mark every time Luap posts them.

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:42

TrainSefira
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#1644

no-games wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

The win-rates are also a much better reading of how "balanced" a character is than a players perceptions.

E.G.
Every noob who complains about Haku on the Altar.

But yet, almost daily I see many of you complaining about Miss Perma Stun (Sakura) being OP and begging to rework her even though her %'s stay around the 50% mark every time Luap posts them.

We don't have access to the team win-rates.
So we don't know how well Sakura may be doing in her "teams".
Though as I know, I'm not complaining about Sakura every day, thank you very much.

Is now officially a university student.
Bachelor in Science, here I come.

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:44

dxb_blackwolf
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#1645

some characters are more strategic than other characters so that makes them harder for certain people to use. Example: Itachi. So does that mean that itachi needs a nerf since he's really strong in the hands of some people? No, and same goes for YK

Thanks for the sig TwinxMangekyou

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, a time traveler, slider, or an esper,
then come find me! That is all." -Suzumya Haruhi

Posted on March 20, 2010 10:50

Masta_J
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#1646

dxb_blackwolf wrote:

this is exactly how i feel more or less.

the player skill shouldnt determine if a char should be boosted or nerfed. it should be based on the char alone. and although i believe he should be nerfed or reworked a bit to make him less of a pure OP DD (damage dealer) to something with a bit more finesse. i believe he could just as easily be left alone. but for god's sake he isnt weak by a long shot and shouldnt even be considered for a boost. with this being said i'm going to take a 6-8 hour nap. if you choose to continue this you will just have to wait until then for a rebuttal :amused

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Posted on March 20, 2010 10:55

Squirrel_ZA
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#1647

Firstly i didn't come here to see potential Flame and or arguing,.............. Kalandra, Train, masta

Secondly,

kalandra wrote:

TrainSefira wrote:

The win-rates are also a much better reading of how "balanced" a character is than a players perceptions.

Simple -
YK is a starter character, I+K is a mission character late late late in the game.
This means that someone with absolutely no skill can start the game and play YK and destroy these famous Winrates you are so much praising. It doesn't matter on the skill of the player? If someone cant play the game at all well with even a dime of common sense ...... then yes.. the "tools" "winrate" will go down. The winrate is only a guide. I+K can only be unlocked at a higher level and through some pretty tough missions for some, going through this mission means the "player" has the skill and common mathematical sense to progress stable teams by then. Thats why I+K is higher.

My opinion here.???
I believe it was too soon to bring nerfs/boosts to the new characters because its still in development stages. I also believe that too much emphasis is been brought upon these so called win rates. And rather unbiased opinions from experienced players should be used more often.
I believe YK should require a rework, why??? not because i think he is op/up but because of originality. Change the one skill completely instead of a mirrored Nin version. Not because this would make the character better or worse, but provide more insight and fun for all new members.

We playing this game for fun remember.
Those that take this game too seriously, are destined to complain all their NA Life here on the alter.

I agreed with almost all the updates bar a couple. one in particular is definately Gaara Rehab. Like i said, if more emphasis was made on understanding the meta of NA, then it would be obvious to not improve the better, but destroy it to create more diversity in play. The current meta is AoE Stun. Laup has done this before with the GIS combo, so why has he improved the versatility of this one? Rehab was the only reasonable AoE stunner. Now he is part of a new culture of dynamic stunners.

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Posted on March 20, 2010 11:02

dxb_blackwolf
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#1648

phew almost lost my streak with the OP OBITO... +20:cool

seriously nerf him

Thanks for the sig TwinxMangekyou

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, a time traveler, slider, or an esper,
then come find me! That is all." -Suzumya Haruhi

Posted on March 20, 2010 11:06

apokalypsepain
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#1649

hey you dont think obito sucks!!??with the new balance is better and better every balance change,tell me how many times a team like naruto obito and young kakashi ruined ur great streak?

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Posted on March 20, 2010 11:08

kalandra
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#1650

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

kalandra wrote:

Masta_J wrote:

Luapman wrote:

imo there seems to be no issue with this for it still seems to produce effective chars. working from that as a basis every char should be fundamentally sound.

kalandra wrote:

1) If we're going by "noobiness factor" then do you know the statistic only counted matches by level 20 and above.

2) Also, new players aren't complete idiot. There are plenty of starter characters that are not on the bottom of the winrates. And is every Young Kakashi user an idiot while his opponent is some sort of genius. No, they should be the same.

3) There are plenty of cases where overpowered new/remake character winrates were completed off the charts already. Just because a character is new doesn't mean people will automatically suck with them.

4) A new/remake character winrates won't simply go up when people becomes more familiar with them. Take remake Lee for example. Even after some amount of time for people to get familiar with him, Lee is still on the bottom of the winrates.

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